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Author Topic: Legalisation of Prostitution
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14377_Jedi Kermit
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 Date Posted: 6/29/03 3:59pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
It would also imho cut down on rape and sex related assaults both on the prostitutes themselves and the general public.

That's a very, very old view...one that actually stems back until the middle ages where towns had their streets of brothels for men to use. The church and government believed that this brought down the number of young men who would prey on "decent women" or unmarried virgins.

Statistically, you are probably wrong. If you've read such books as the "Final Report of the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography," you would understand that, in fact, there is a very clear progression between porn-->(prostitution, though this "step" is often skipped, but I feel it fits in rather well)-->rape-->murder. This progression has been well-documented through complex studies of criminals and criminal behavior.

You'd also find that perpetrators have rape have real issues with women in general and power plays as well. Men (and or women) who perpetrate these sorts of crimes are doing it for reasons that go a lot deeper then just viewing pornography. If viewing oorn or visiting a prostitute made you go out and rape or kill someone then there would be a lot more men in jail.

Perhaps, for one night, a man (not any man, please don't take this personally--I'm referring specifically to men who would otherwise be out raping someone) might pay rather than rape.

That's not the point of rape. The point of rape is a power game between the victim and the perpetrator. He isn't going to be fobbed off with a prostitute at that stage. The desire to rape someone goes a lot deeper then just not having the money to pay for sex.


Slavery should be legal under certain circumstances. Let's say someone is so desperate he wishes to sell himself to a slaveowner. At least he will have food, clothing, and shelter, right? The government could regulate it to make sure the slaves are treated fairly, and can even tax the industry.

Selling your body is different then becomming someone's property. Most people sell something or provide a part of them when they work. I sell Toys in a department store. I provide my time, my physcial skills, my knowledge and so forth. The company pays me for providing these things. It's the same with prostitution, the girl (or guy) provides his/her body and the customer pays for the privelidge of having sex with her/him.

You aren't ever going to wipe out prostitution. Even the medieval church recognised this (they taxed it instead). If you do wipe out open prostitution and brothels it will simply go underground where it becomes more dangerous for the girls and guys who work there.

Instead of arguing about the morality or lack there of, why not start debating about how to make the industry safer for everyone?

Kithera

 

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 Date Posted: 6/29/03 4:09pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
Overlord: That sort of thing happened, and not too long ago. It was called "sharecropping". One great-grandfather on my father's side was a sharecropper, as were his parents and grandparents. That's the way the "poor white trash" (white non-plantation owners)survived in the South. Slaves who weren't abused by their masters and were given food, clothing and shelter were better off (in an economical sense only, of course, because absolutely nothing replaces freedom) than the sharecroppers were.

 

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Date Posted: 6/29/03 4:42pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
My grandfather on my mother's side was a share-cropper.

 

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Date Posted: 6/29/03 5:21pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
Womberty,

comparing prostitution to rape and murder is wrong because SEX IS NOT A CRIME, unlike what some religious freaks think...

 

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Date Posted: 6/29/03 6:56pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution - Date Edited: 6/29/03 6:59pm (2 edits total) Edited By: womberty
I wasn't really comparing them; I was pointing out the logical fallacy in the argument "it's not going away, so we should just make it safer."

As I said later, prostitution is different in that it's more difficult to point out a specific victim.


EDIT:
And at least one form of sex is a crime: rape.


Why do it for free when you can get paid for it?

Again - why should I donate a kidney for free when I could possibly get paid for it? Why won't the government let me sell my organs?

 
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Date Posted: 6/29/03 7:30pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
well, in a way society has made murder safer.........rstrictions on dangerous weapons have reduced the chances of crimes of passion/ or of opportunity becoming fatal..........an effective police and judicial system has reduced the chances of reoffending........

 
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Date Posted: 6/29/03 7:39pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution - Date Edited: 6/29/03 7:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: womberty
No, if you follow the logic of the original argument, you would need to make it safer for the person committing the crime. An example would be laws against self-defense, or restricting police officers from using deadly force to prevent someone from committing the crime. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

Certain activities will not go away. They are part of our nature as human beings. The reason we have government is because humans in their natural state would not live together peacefully. Life would be violent, and survival of the fittest would be the ultimate law. We would not progress very far under those conditions, so we communally agree to grant everyone certain rights and to refrain from certain destructive behaviors, for the benefit of our society as a whole.

Now, you could maybe argue that prostitution isn't violating anyone's rights, but simply supporting its legalization because "it's not going away" doesn't make much sense.

 
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Date Posted: 7/1/03 1:19am Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
Selling your body is different then becomming someone's property.

how so?

 
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Date Posted: 7/2/03 3:14pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
womberty --
it's not going to go away" is not my only reason. consentual sex isn't a crime, and so what if money's involved! it always is, even w/ a married couple!

btw, a year ago, I never would have agreed w/ the legalization of prostitution.

then I learned how amazingly horny men can be.

(why is it that whenever I put in my 2 cents, on the net or in real life, someone thinx its a crime and makes a mockery out of me!)

u can stop picking on me now. there's a whole bunch of posts that came after me that u can nitpick. i'm outta here.

 

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Date Posted: 7/2/03 3:31pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution - Date Edited: 7/2/03 3:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: womberty
it's not going to go away" is not my only reason. consentual sex isn't a crime,

The latter makes a better argument; perhaps you should have said that in your first post.


btw, a year ago, I never would have agreed w/ the legalization of prostitution.

then I learned how amazingly horny men can be.

Careful - you're going back to your first argument, and it doesn't work. Sure, men can be "amazingly horny," but does that mean they have a right to have sex whenever they want? What about if they can't find a willing woman (prostitute or not) - would they be justified if they committed rape? After all, they were "amazingly horny."


You aren't ever going to wipe out prostitution. Even the medieval church recognised this (they taxed it instead). If you do wipe out open prostitution and brothels it will simply go underground where it becomes more dangerous for the girls and guys who work there.

Instead of arguing about the morality or lack there of, why not start debating about how to make the industry safer for everyone?

Because you, too, are arguing that "it won't go away, so we should make it safer."
As I said before, that argument doesn't make sense to me. Our entire system of law is designed to prevent people from doing what they would naturally do; if we were naturally well-behaved, we would have no need for government.

 
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14377_Jedi Kermit
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 Date Posted: 7/2/03 4:00pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
Because you, too, are arguing that "it won't go away, so we should make it safer."
As I said before, that argument doesn't make sense to me. Our entire system of law is designed to prevent people from doing what they would naturally do; if we were naturally well-behaved, we would have no need for government.

It makes perfect sense to me Womberty. I firstly see nothing wrong with consentual sex between adults, secondly I see nothing wrong with one party charging for that sex.

If you can explain to me how you would get around prostitution (or make it go away) then I might get a better idea of where you are comming from. Instead I see, realisitically, that prostitution is probably always going to be part of our society. I want to make the industry safer rather then forcing it into the underground as happens everytime it's made illegal.

I'd rather they legalised and regulated the prostitution industry simply because it makes it safer for the girls and guys who work there.

I think we may have to agree to disagree. I can't understand what you are thinking in relations to this subject and you can't understand or don't accept my arguement.

Kithera

 

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Date Posted: 7/2/03 4:15pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
i think people, naturally make a distinction between certain types of crime.....which of course can very between certain cultures.

for example in my country the act of killing someone, whether accidental or deliberate (outside of war) is considered almost without exception a bad thing and its not something that people think about, they just know its wrong......so if you accidently kill someone on the motorway, or shoot an intruder in your house, you will still get punished for it, sure not as much as someone who deliberately killed......
the same goes for assault on the person of another....whether it be a fist fight, with weapons, or domestic..it is usually seen as bad and requiring punishment.

people distinguish these crimes from affairs of vice, and always have done.........why? who knows....smoking weed is hardly ever seen as being as bad as murder, nor prostitution

when people say that prostitution will always happen, so the government should try and make it better they are not using a broad brush strokes interpretation like you seem to think womberty, they are making a distinction between consential prostitution where there is a willing seller and a willing buyer and other situations where the seller does not have a choice...no one i would hope would want the government to expediate the latter kind of prostitution.

put simple most people don't have a unified view of the concept of "crime".

 
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Date Posted: 7/2/03 4:16pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
I firstly see nothing wrong with consentual sex between adults, secondly I see nothing wrong with one party charging for that sex.

I think it was an episode of The West Wing that posed the question, "How do you prove it's consentual?" How do you prove that women aren't forced into prostitution to pay debts, or for any other reason?

It's probably the same logic behind the ban on selling organs - how do you prove that it came from a willing donor?


Instead I see, realisitically, that prostitution is probably always going to be part of our society.

Realistically, murder and rape will always be a part of our society as well.

You can argue that prostitution is consentual sex, or point out the fiscal benefits of taxing the trade - but don't try to justify it simply because it's not going away.


I can't understand what you are thinking in relations to this subject and you can't understand or don't accept my arguement.

I'm not entirely sure what to think about legalizing prostitution - I dislike it for a number of reasons, but I'm not sure how well that meshes with my theory of how government should work.

The reason I don't accept the basic argument of "it won't go away, so make it safer" is that I find it illogical. We make laws that prohibit natural behaviors that, no matter how hard we try, will not go away. There will always be murderers, but that does not make us wrong for outlawing murder.

When considering a subject like this, I like to frame the argument in terms of individual rights: it should be illegal if it violates someone else's rights. With murder, the conclusion is simple; it violates someone's rights to their own life, and therefore should be illegal. With prostitution, it's less clear to me that there is an individual victim of each occurance. I guess I'm still looking for some justification for my gut reaction - that I do not want prostitution to be legal.

 
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Date Posted: 7/2/03 4:34pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
"How do you prove that women aren't forced into prostitution to pay debts, or for any other reason?"

How do you prove they're not forced into any other job to pay debts? Is prostitution any more degrading than scrubing toilets? It's a job like any other, the only thing that makes it different is the stigma surrounding it.

 

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We enter into life naked and howling, covered with blood.
The fun doesn't have to end there.
Who to himself is law, no law does need, offends no law and is a king indeed
Abraham failed the test.
TAKE A BOW MISTER BUNNY!!!
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Date Posted: 7/2/03 4:42pm Subject: RE: Legalisation of Prostitution
Is prostitution any more degrading than scrubing toilets?

The law treats sex differently from labor. Most states, I think, allow minors work from at least age 15. They don't offer similar exceptions for statutory rape.

 
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