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Author Topic: JC ideas and suggestions
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 Date Posted: 12/3/08 5:22pm Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions - Date Edited: 12/3/08 5:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KnightWriter
Serious discussion is allowed in the JCC, and should continue to be allowed. The style of discussion between the two places is starkly different, as any observer of both forums knows.

Current events and other subjects with some heft to them give the JCC a side that gives the place some weight, and helps build the community in a different way. If anyone wants to focus on those subjects exclusively, there's a place for that (the Senate). The discussion goes on for a day or two and then generally dies off. In the Senate, that's the entire focus of the forum. In the JCC, it's just one of many things.

IMO, the Mambhi (sp) thread would be perfect for the Senate as would the whole general election thread, Obama reaction thread, etc.


Your saying that tells me you don't spend much time in the Senate, if any, because if you spent much time there you'd know that parallel threads on those subjects already exist there.

 

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Date Posted: 12/3/08 6:24pm Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions - Date Edited: 12/3/08 6:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JediCouncilMember
So....suggestions aren't welcome then....

Nevermind.

Edit:

My point was the redundacy is potentially a problem.

 

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Date Posted: 12/4/08 12:04am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions - Date Edited: 12/4/08 12:05am (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
OK, some good idea's being thrown about here..........

Keralys Posted:
Frankly, though, we're struggling: how do you get an entire board to change its momentum? People are frustrated, and as much with LFL in general - probably more with LFL in general - than with individual authors. The sorts of things you posted, Dingo, I think are awful. I edit them out whenever I see them. But at the same time, I want Lit to be a place where someone can say, "Man, I think X's writing is terrible." Otherwise it's essentially just a cheering squad, and frankly I don't want Lit to be that. Honestly, I want to get the discussion back on track to more IU conversations with less about the outside.

I think thats it exactly. Users probably don't want it to be a cheering squad only when it comes to author discussion. That said I myself try to steer away from heavy critism of books I don't enjoy. Sure I post a review and make a comment in the general discussion forum, but I don't take it farther than that.

Just because I didn't like Fury (random example) doesn't mean I'm going to go on a campaign to try and convert the entire board to my POV. I have my say, post my negatives and then move on. It works for me but I can see why some might want to push it farther, but I simply can't spend a lot of time dwelling on that which I don't like.

And I also on the flipside am probably overly defensive of something I really enjoy. I do still try very hard to keep the discussion respectful and try to focus on the actual text/events of the novels or comics, often with limited success tongue More below happy

Keralys posted:
This isn't just a mod issue, though it definitely [i]is a mod issue. It's also a user issue. And every time a good user just gives up and walks away instead of continuing to strive to make that particular forum a better place, it gets harder for the mods to keep making it a better place.[/i]

We'll I'm not gone but I've certainly been taking a break to think things through wink , but some people have been lost as Dingo mentions and is apparently an example of.

Well and thats the real trick isn't it tongue As an example we've recently had Sinre and MsLanna spearhead the efforts to get book discussion threads in the EUC over the nature of how the discussion threads sometimes progrss in Lit.

We had several posters in our little Oya Mando Fanclub mention that they had no interest in discussing Order 66 after taking a look at how the Lit thread had progressed. Thus we ended up with a fracture of sorts in the discussion, or lack of discussion for that matter. thinking The contents of the actual book were simply not the focus of discussion in the majority of the posts, while how the book fits or doen't fit into the overall EU continuity dominated discussion.

Now I personally don't think the continuity discussion is a bad thing (I myself was a large part of the interaction). Many users have issues with it and wished to voice their displeasure, thats fine, but it did take over the thread and I can see why people were frustrated with the course it took.

Something else that always seems to pop into my head is simply the mass of people I'm discussing a book with that haven't actually read the book. They seem interested in only the Coles notes version of things, how the book fits into the overall universe, so on.

Thats cool and definitely has a big place in Lit, but its far from productive in the terms of discussing the actual events of a book, how it made you feel, where the characters are going, etc. Perhaps seperate threads for discussing Continuity issues outside of the actual book threads would work, kinda like we have gor the overall Clone Wars right now.

I realize it might be cumbersome to have an extra thread dedicated to this kind of stuff, might not even be nesessary for each novel, but it would provide some seperation between the discussion of the events of the novel and exterior issues surrounding a particular book or series.

Keralys mentions:
Rob - I think you and I have talked around this quite a lot, but never actually gotten right down to it. It remains something I'm curious about. Where, and I mean exactly where, do you think the line that ought not be crossed is as far as author discussions?

I certainly think the editing thats already done(threats against authors and the like) is on the right track, just there isn't always enough of it. The problem is that this line is subjective, what one person finds acceptable another won't. The users are completely at the mercy of the Mods on this issue. Here's a few examples of where I feel the line is crossed that others don't:

Ah, the satanic whirpool of continuity hell that is 22 - 19 BBY.

she's just eliminated every speck of Mandalorian history in the Clone Wars—other than her own—with a penstroke. And that would make this book about the biggest travesty to ever be published in Star Wars.

hope this book tanks miserably in sales, but I wouldn't bet on that, since crap sells after all

Let's not put lipstick on this pig...

She cares nothing for established continuity and is only concerned with remaking the Star Wars universe into her own highly warped vision.

Ugh. And the literature keeps circling the drain.

Thats just a few from one thread. Are they far over a line, probably not, but I think they are a little rude if we're hoping to get a VIP to interact in some way, shape or form. I understand much of it is sarcasm, venting and such. But it still seems over the top to some of us. It's wildly subjective as I said before, and what the Mods decide goes on this front, but I do think its possible to critize a book without being over the top on the sarcasm meter, name calling and such..

Keralys adds:
What if we took a three month hiatus from any author discussion allowed in Lit. As in, you flat simply can't discuss the author or the writing outside of a book review thread? This is crazy, I'm aware. But one of the things that first drew me into Lit was the IU discussions that were going on - some of them crazy and aggressive, some of them totally friendly. We rarely have such discussions anymore; instead we have a lot of discussions that devolve into author-discussions.

I like this idea. There have been excellent discussions I've been a part of lately about issues like the Clones, or critism of the Jedi that have really been derailed by authors names constantly popping up. An examination of the text is the funnest way for me to go as well. I have PM'd you. happy

 

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 Date Posted: 12/4/08 3:12am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
Robimus, criticising one book that people haven't read is a lot better than what we used ot have where people criticised (to put it mildly) the entire EU without reading it at all.

The Lit board and EUC used to be a haven for us EU fans, things have gotten a lot better here in regards to the EU. The last prob I saw was regarding authors posting on here, to the extent we were scaring them away, but this has been very well dealt with by the mods on Lit.

 

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 Date Posted: 12/4/08 3:56am Subject: JC ideas and suggestions
MK, I get what you're saying. It's what I used to say as a Lit mod, EU Manager, HA, and even just as a regular user: the only way to change things is to get in there and be a part of making the discussion better. Even though time constraints over the last year or two prevented me from posting about the books as much as I'd have liked, I still tried to as much as I could and participated in the discussion about trying to make things better at the time of the whole CoC discussion (as you might remember). But it was actually that which ended up being the turning point for me. We had a big discussion, something was come up with (a lot less than it could have been, but that's not the issue) and supposedly we were to all try and move forward with helping to improve Lit. And in the course of a week, 2 moderators broke the CoC while spouting that they would enforce it. One might have only broken the spirit of the law, but the other broke the letter of it not too far below assuring another patron that they would be monitoring the discussion for infractions. Rhonda, Chris, Scott, and many, many other mods know of the frustration that I have had with the course that Lit (and the boards as a whole) has gone down over the last few years, and sometimes you have to stop fighting and make a situation clear by the silence of the old "vote with your feet/money" idea of not giving patronage to something that does not give you what you want (which all it is in this case is the ability to actually discuss books that I enjoy). As much as some people have wanted to say it isn't a factor, this is part of the drop-off that has been seen across the range of these boards due to the administration of the whole of the boards and not just Lit (although I'll deal with that further down).

Frankly, if the Lit mods and more serious/senior patrons of the Lit forum really want to get down to trying to improve the forum and make discussions better I'd personally be more than happy to start talking about the EU again. I never came to these forums for the movies, and anyone that knows my posting history knows that I really only ever posted in the CT and PSA forums when it came to movies, and that was but a small fraction of my post count. But Lit does have to be more about discussing topics, rather than rants and raves about authors, continuity and publishing practices in every thread. I'd love to be able to discuss the moral gray zone that was Bessany's actions in helping the Omega's. Or what impact Jacen's death and Zekk's loss could have on Jaina. Or how having a secret apprentice alters the picture we have of Vader post-RotS. Or does William's novelisation of TFU add or subtract from the story as developed by the game. But that's only going to happen if people will let go of their attachment and be willing to talk about the subject rather than flying off on wild tangents or points that have no productive value to a discussion.

There are two ways to combat that if people really want to make an effort, and it doesn't really require the mods to always take action. The first is for Lit to do what it has always done best, and that is self-moderate. Saying in a thread that a post is not really appropriate and having the peer pressure of what is and isn't acceptable can go a long way to actually managing a community, as long as a thread isn't side-tracked into an argument over that one post/issue. The other is just a simple, if people will ignore whole posts that are not productive. If someone wants to participate in a discussion and not just post ideas that are going to be ignored, then they are going to work out real quick what a community will and won't accept. And if we can have an open, honest and productive discussion as to what the standards truly should be that will serve not just the user's interests, but also that of the other stakeholders in this site then it will make doing this a lot easier.

And to round out my epic on Lit, I want to say that I agree heartily with pretty much everything that Robimus has said, but especially the following:

Robimus posted:
Something else that always seems to pop into my head is simply the mass of people I'm discussing a book with that haven't actually read the book. They seem interested in only the Coles notes version of things, how the book fits into the overall universe, so on.


To paraphrase someone else: the loudest voices seem to be the ones that have no idea of what they are talking about.



Getting back to something I said earlier that has a wider implication than just one forum. This site has haemorrhaged users for a variety of reasons, but one most definitely is the way in which these boards have been mismanaged. It isn't exactly the fault of the current administration and I do like the fact that there seems to be an impetus on fixing things now however late the attitude is. There are some people still in the administration that were around during those older times, but singling anyone out about that would be both counterproductive, and a little unfair since I do have an appreciation for the things that happen behind closed doors and the politicking that can take place. Why do I bring this up though? It comes back to the whole "us vs. them" issue.

What many members of the current administration have to realise is the way in which the voices of the masses were treated during the last few years. A lot of lip service had been given to the fact that all of us have a stake in the future of the forums, but ideas were ignored, brushed over, shuffled around or even stomped on when the future should have been being looked at, and we all found out not that long ago that the focus seemed to be pointed in a completely different direction. It has led to lingering frustration in some people, and in some cases just built up a default setting of being maybe a little overly vociferous when trying to get a point across.

On the flip side I think that some of 'us' need to realise that because there is a group of people that do have a rather common view of the boards and what should be done by the administration, that we are not shy about giving out our 2 cents worth (and a few grand more along with I have to admit looking at the length of this post already), and that we tend to gravitate towards similar issues it can look like a storming of the castle to some members of the administration.

Maybe if we can all be a little more open with each other, and not go into something with prejudgements on tone and intention, then we could get some more productive things done. We can have people throw out all sorts of possible ideas and actually discuss the true merits of them and whether they will work, be feasible, or suit these boards; rather than trying to play shell games and work out what is someone's hidden agenda, or just sniping at each other.

 

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 Date Posted: 12/4/08 10:04am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
*raises hand*

Not to deflect the very important Lit discussion, but clearly this is an issue which needs discussing in depth, and not in a general ideas and suggestions thread without consuming the thread. I would suggest that Lit discussion is moved to another thread, while we can continue to discuss the issue of cultivating and not chopping up boards.

I don't want two very important discussions to overlap and counter each other out, that's all.

 

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Date Posted: 12/4/08 12:24pm Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
It's probably a good idea, in general, that when a single idea starts to take over this thread it be made into its own thread, so we can continue to generate new ideas and suggestions in here. Especially an idea that would be unique to a single board or section of boards.

 

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 Date Posted: 12/4/08 12:44pm Subject: JC ideas and suggestions
Agreed. I will start such a thread. happy

 

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Date Posted: 1/4 11:02am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
I have one idea, it might be unpopular but I think it's worth sharing. Bioware forums lock any thread that is political, religious, ect. Given the problems that have occured again and again here maybe they have a point.

 

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 Date Posted: 1/4 11:08am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
Perhaps banning the problem users in those threads would be a better way of resolving the issues.

 

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 Date Posted: 1/4 11:11am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
Totally agree with you there Hal. Why spoil the posting of hundreds due to a few problem users?

 

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 Date Posted: 1/4 11:31am Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
nancyallen posted:
I have one idea, it might be unpopular but I think it's worth sharing. Bioware forums lock any thread that is political, religious, ect. Given the problems that have occured again and again here maybe they have a point.


There is nothing that making each other respect that we all have different opinions wouldn't solve. I don't know where you post, but as long as these discussions stay civil, that's all that anyone should ask. You'll never make people agree on subjects like these, and it would be scary to shut down discussions in the community forums like this, close to censorship as there'd be nothing else but spam for the most part. So someone thinks differently, agree to disagree and move on or discuss rationally and respectfully.

 

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 Date Posted: 1/4 5:10pm Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
I've got an insane idea: how about making the process for replacing a mod in a forum quicker? By the time Prenn's replacement is announced, it will be 2020.

 

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 Date Posted: 1/4 5:32pm Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions
I disagree. I think fast replacements might lead to the wrong decision. These things need to be discussed, plus, its a weird time right now with the holidays and people not on as much as they usually are so naturally things are slower. Be just a little bit more patient. Good things will come. wink

 

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 Date Posted: 1/4 10:03pm Subject: RE: JC ideas and suggestions - Date Edited: 1/4 10:04pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthTunick
I believe it's been over a month since Prenn announced that he was stepping down..............................a decision really should have been made by now.

 

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