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Author Topic: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
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 Date Posted: 11/6 4:51pm Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for? - Date Edited: 11/6 4:51pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sinrebirth
I've been thinking about this, and ever since the last psychotic Jedi displayed a Force skill of the Celestials, as opposed to Jacen. We know, from the Mind Walkers element, that the psychotic Jedi haven't been displaying powers that Jacen has; they're using powers Abeloth already knew.

So, following from that, Abeloth specifically made use of Force powers which would attract the Jedi to Jacen Solo. She specifically took advantage of the Daala situation/created the Daala situation to lure Luke Skywalker away from Coruscant. With Abeloth less constrained to the Maw, she knows about Ship, she knows about Jacen, she knows about Luke, she knows about the Lost Tribe.

And so she puts together this massively complicated lure to connect all these dots together... I wouldn't be surprised if she was responsible for the madness of the Hidden One, or the complications the Prophet introduced. If we visit the Dathomiri, and things are complex at their end, I wouldn't be surprised if Abeloth has actually, one at a time, isolated and weakened every single individual Force cult out there...

It makes me more concerned for her reaction to the events of Abyss, myself. If she overreacts, then she could misuse the advantage that a new Sith War will give her. But at the same time, surely this advantage is time-sensitive. So she's going to have to do something in Backlash to deal with the spanner Luke has thrown in her plan. Sure, a Sith War is a nice possibility, but if she really wants Luke dead more than anything...

Fun, no?

 

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Date Posted: 11/6 5:07pm Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for? - Date Edited: 11/6 5:09pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Ghost
Are we sure she wants Luke dead?

I don't think so...

Are we sure Luke really messed up any of her plans, or did she just use the Lost Tribe to test Luke's power, and maybe distract him from her?



But Abeloth is definitely underestimated.

The Mind Walkers are from all different Force cultures, it is described. She probably got her knowledge, which she has granted to the mad Jedi, from them.

Also, how do you defeat an ancient nexus of dark side energy, which has no real physical body of its own, as the BACKLASH blurb confirms?

 
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Date Posted: 11/6 7:24pm Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
Like Ship says to Vestara "You may be strong in the Force, but you are not almightly" or something along those lines. He (it?) is definitely referring to Abeloth as almighty.

I know its probably obvious, but it seems the maw was created specifically to keep Abeloth contained with centrepoint being the dvice used to do this and possibly the big gun pointed that was if anything did happen. And kessel as like a monitor station to gauge the strength or secureness of the prison. Once centrepoint was destroyed and the walls of the prison cracked, the monitor station tried to destroy itself, possibly because it was no longer needed as there was no way without centrepoint to repair the maw although thats a bit of conjecture

Even so it seems the celestials or whoever imprisoned Abeloth knew what she is capable of. Vestara seems to have divined her true nature. I think Luke has a feeling that whoever the woman across the lake (Abeloth) is a nasty piece of work and that whatever has happened at the Maw will have bad consequences from his reaction to seeing the monitors in the station in the Maw when the get off the Shadow in Abyss.

 

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Date Posted: 11/6 8:07pm Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
Okay, I don't get it. Abeloth, what is she? I read the books but had a hard time understanding her. What can she do that is so fanatastic? Can she do the powers of the lanterns (Green, Red, Blue, Orange, or Purple)? Can she fly in the air? Can she become invisible? Can she fire a ray of pure destructive energy? Is she almighty? Almighty of what? Maybe some one can explain this better for me. Cause I read the book and could not understand it

 
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Date Posted: 11/6 8:29pm Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
I don't think that she can do anything physical but she's very manipulative. I don't think that she has done things to the extent that you say, but I think she's been limited to only the maw because she didn't have anyway to get a physical representation of her power off of her planet and out of the Maw. While she's able to control force-sensitives to a certain extent, I think that that extent is only able for her to make them crazy and generally unable to work in the machinations that you posit. Now that she has Ship, I think we'll see some more physical manifestations of her power show up as she starts by taking Kessel, and then branching out to the point where the GA has to try to do something.

 

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Date Posted: 11/7 2:18am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for? - Date Edited: 11/7 2:28am (1 edits total) Edited By: S1thari
vong333 posted:
Okay, I don't get it. Abeloth, what is she? I read the books but had a hard time understanding her. What can she do that is so fanatastic? Can she do the powers of the lanterns (Green, Red, Blue, Orange, or Purple)? Can she fly in the air? Can she become invisible? Can she fire a ray of pure destructive energy? Is she almighty? Almighty of what? Maybe some one can explain this better for me. Cause I read the book and could not understand it


From what I can gather so far from the three FOTJ novels we've read (and believe me, I'm right there with you -- I'm having a hard time understanding what the writers intend to do with Abeloth and how everything will fit together; it just seems really disjointed and odd to me at this point), Abeloth is perceived as a such a colossal threat because she has the ability to break young Force-users' psyches and force them to believe everyone around them has been replaced with a fake. So far, it seems like only the Jedi who've spent time in the Maw cluster as young children are affected by her. If she has the ability to do this, what else can she do? Why is she doing it? I think that's one of biggest questions we have to ask. Turning potentially bright young Jedi like Valin, Seff and Jysella (to name a few) against their masters might be amusing for her, but I doubt she's doing it solely for entertainment purposes. It feels more like the first step in a larger, more calculating plot.

Turning promising young Jedi into nut cases also accomplished another (potential) goal for Abeloth -- it made the public and the government more distrustful of the Jedi in general, and it alienated them a great deal more. Caedus's actions during LOTF started it all (maybe Abeloth had a hand in that, too -- maybe the vision Jacen saw while he was beyond the shadows was something Abeloth fabricated in order to send him on the path she wanted him to take, and thus the vision of the dark man/dark throne or whatever it was that scared Jacen so much he decided to turn Sith was a ploy Abeloth was angling for as early as BETRAYAL to discredit the Jedi Order), but this is what really forced the public to see the Jedi in a different light -- not as saviors and peace-keepers, but as harbingers of war and destruction.

 
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Date Posted: 11/7 2:58am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
I'm not sure if she does have an agenda against the Jedi. Everyone she has had dealings with (Lost Tribe, Ben, Allana, etc) She seems to want companionship but I dont think any one being will be enough.

At Kessel we assume its Abeloth reaching out to Allana in Outcast
Ben fears the dark tentacle from the maw and we've seen Abeloth with the tentacles (Or Vestara glimpsed her as such)
She's intent on keeping the lost tribe on the canivorous plant world
The mind-drinkers/walkers are all force sensitives called to the Maw. Its possible they all went 'crazy' before they got there. The duros former Jedi replies to Luke's question of whether he thinks they are imposters "Not possible, I know that now." So I'd say that the other force sensitives lured there probably went crazy too except only now since there were a large group of Jedi stationed there is it being noticed.

But you never know, she might turn against the Jedi in particular. Don't forget Kyp went to the Maw before as well.

 

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Date Posted: 11/7 4:02am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for? - Date Edited: 11/7 4:18am (5 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
Since she so far has fallen into something of a classical "ancient evil" archtype I'm not sure whether there is actually going to be a purpose behind her actions as such or whether she simply is. I'd quite enjoy her being something of a statement to why all Sith Lords end up going wacko no matter their motivations, since she'd be an example of what a pure dark side being is and how should a Sith ever achieve their ultimate dream of becoming all powerful they will have to throw off all humanity to do it.

Abeloth would then be someone who has actually done that: become all powerful and, as a result, ceased to be herself anymore. Gone is the woman she may once upon a time in the distant, distant past have been... in her place is simply an endless nexus of dark power... a hunger... whistling

Couldn't be a better reason for Jedi not to fall to the dark side than her. "Play with fire, and this is what you'll become."

As Centerpoint was built by the Celestials, and as the Maw is something of a Force "blind spot" presumably designed to prevent her from reaching out and corrupting people, I remain of the mind that she is a leftover of the Celestials. At this stage that doesn't tell us a lot more about her, though I'm inclined to assume it either means she is a Celestial herself or, as the Mind Walkers suggested was possible, a mortal who has drunk of the flow beyond shadows and become a Celestial (which may well be what all Celestials are, just that she was a dark one).

Why would being a Celestial make her dangerous? Well, being an immortal Force demigod who has submerged themselves in the Force and become capable of twisting the illusion that is reality while immersed beyond shadows in the flow would make the eternal Dark One rather powerful, no? whistling

It does make you wonder what happened to all the other Celestials... but I assume either the Rakata worked out how to destroy them and/or they're all just hanging out somewhere... like beyond the veil or something. tongue

At least with "beyond the veil" it suggests they're probably not as oppressive as Abeloth is. "Beyond shadows" is calling the mortal realm an illusion, a shadow, so is rather demeaning. "The veil" isn't quite stigmatising the mortal plane in quite the same way, so those who regard it as just a veil not a shadow I presume might be a bit more benevolent than the dark imprisoned she-devil.

 
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Date Posted: 11/7 4:24am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
All I know right this second is...If Abeloth falls down in pain when someone sticks her with a lightsaber or cuts off one of her tentacles, then that is how you can tell she is NOT some kind of almighty powerful Cthullu-type darkside nexus of evilness.

For Luke Skywalker to save the day at the end of FotJ by whipping out his short saber & sticking it into Abeloth nice & slow, while being mildly sexual as it usually is, would be quite anticlimatic.

 

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Date Posted: 11/7 5:22am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
Well, I give her credit for being insanely dangerous. And possibly much more insidious than Sidious. She seems to be at least in part be executing in a quite unassuming way what Palpatine and Wyrrlok's ultimate goal would have been, to own and bend all minds for her purposes. Except on a level of darkness and grand scale that transcended what Palps or any other Sith could do. I mean, the Sith needed hardware. So far, I don't know that Abeloth does. She simply needs minds. However she's pure enigma which makes her much more frightening and interesting than any Force incarnation so far. She doesn't make eyes roll for this reason. I simply see her as a hyperbole of the traditional Dark Side MO. She's a demon. I don't know if she's bent on revenge or a kind of joy in infecting mind after mind. Thing is we've only just met her. I understand why it's so hard to get a fix on her. We're not suppose to. At least not yet.

 

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Date Posted: 11/7 7:58am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
Zorrixor posted:
Since she so far has fallen into something of a classical "ancient evil" archtype I'm not sure whether there is actually going to be a purpose behind her actions as such or whether she simply is. I'd quite enjoy her being something of a statement to why all Sith Lords end up going wacko no matter their motivations, since she'd be an example of what a pure dark side being is and how should a Sith ever achieve their ultimate dream of becoming all powerful they will have to throw off all humanity to do it.

Abeloth would then be someone who has actually done that: become all powerful and, as a result, ceased to be herself anymore. Gone is the woman she may once upon a time in the distant, distant past have been... in her place is simply an endless nexus of dark power... a hunger... whistling


Couldn't have said it better myself. Well put. happy


Manisphere posted:
Well, I give her credit for being insanely dangerous. And possibly much more insidious than Sidious. She seems to be at least in part be executing in a quite unassuming way what Palpatine and Wyrrlok's ultimate goal would have been, to own and bend all minds for her purposes. Except on a level of darkness and grand scale that transcended what Palps or any other Sith could do. I mean, the Sith needed hardware. So far, I don't know that Abeloth does. She simply needs minds. However she's pure enigma which makes her much more frightening and interesting than any Force incarnation so far. She doesn't make eyes roll for this reason. I simply see her as a hyperbole of the traditional Dark Side MO. She's a demon. I don't know if she's bent on revenge or a kind of joy in infecting mind after mind. Thing is we've only just met her. I understand why it's so hard to get a fix on her. We're not suppose to. At least not yet.


Again, agreed. It's funny you say "demon," because that was actually one of the first things I thought of when Abeloth was introduced.

 
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Date Posted: 11/7 8:05am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
It would be an interesting twist if Abeloth turned out to be influencing Jacen the entire time, like she's influencing other Jedi now. The authors appear to be frantically struggling to find a way to make Jacen's fall more understandable, and this would be a good way of doing it without too much of a retcon.

That being said...it's already implied that Abeloth wasn't able to spread her influence until after Centerpoint was destroyed...

 
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Date Posted: 11/7 8:54am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for? - Date Edited: 11/7 8:57am (2 edits total) Edited By: S1thari
True, but we don't really know if she was able to influence Jacen while he was "beyond the shadows," which was what I was assuming when I suggested she was manipulating him. When he was beyond the shadows and saw this vision that may have set him down the path he took during LOTF, Abeloth could have simply created that illusion in order to light a fire under him, so to speak. She'd know that if she showed him a vision of his uncle or someone he loved falling to the dark side he'd want to prevent it. It's rather ingenius, actually. Heck, she could have even been doing this to Luke and Ben when they were there, as well -- how certain are we that the Anakin, Mara and Jacen they talked to were the genuine Force-ghosts/presences of the people they knew in real life?

Again, it's just speculation. So far it seems evident that the authors intend to cast Jacen's fall in a more sympathetic light. This would appear to accomplish that.

 
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Date Posted: 11/7 9:12am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
what a waste of Jacen's charactor if it ends up he was just manipulated into being a Sith by Abeloth

so he goes from being a villian
to some wanting him to be the hero who sacrificed himself for Luke
to now being some pawn in a PR game by Abeloth

sigh.....

perhaps next time the authors write a series, they can maybe know what they want to do with it so they dont have to spend the entire next series rewriting the whole thing?

 
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Date Posted: 11/7 9:30am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for?
Again, agreed. It's funny you say "demon," because that was actually one of the first things I thought of when Abeloth was introduced.
Technically she is an aberration.

As for how dangerous she is....I would say about a CR 7.

tongue

More seriously, I think she won't be much a galactic level threat. It is ironic in a way, despite their much greater than normal powers and knowledge, demonic creatures like Aboleth here usually serve as personal threats, while squishy fleshing scare people on the world/system.galaxy level. Universal level goes back to Eldritch Abominations.

 

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Date Posted: 11/7 9:39am Subject: Is Abeloth a lot more dangerous than we're giving her credit for? - Date Edited: 11/7 9:50am (2 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
Why is Abeloth the same entity that Luke saw in the Maw? There seem to be time and space discrepancies. Why can't there be two entities there and actually a number of them, perhaps throughout the Maw - or on planets nearby. Are they (she) celestials? Why did Jacen and Luke feel that becoming a celestial - or having all that knowledge would be a bad thing? They reach some really stupid conclusions at times and don't bother explaining them. Suddenly knowledge is evil power or will cause one's brain to bust or something. The whole idea of drinking your way into sudden and complete (or greatly expanded) knowledge is far-fetched to me (especially if the celestials are ancient and have come by this knowledge in that way). I would rather see Abeloth be a renegade celestial with no current connection to the Maw except when she arrived with the One Sith.

I dunno...Abeloth suddenly responsible for so many things is rather lame. I mean perhaps she had something to do with Jacen and the Maw Jedi and is trying to get to Allana who would be approaching the throne. If it is the same person on the planet, then she wanted to get to Luke and Ben too - but the One Sith attacked them, so we don't know what the purpose was. Then there is latching onto Vestara for no apparent reason, as she seems to be a rank novice Sith and a little loopy besides - reminds me of Ventress. However, there just seems to be no real rhyme or reason to any of it.

 

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